Dana Vespoli

danavespoli

I recently had the tremendous privilege to have an hour long conversation with one of my favorite directors, Dana Vespoli. I have to say, she is one of the most down to earth, honest and sweetest people to talk to. I appreciate her bearing with my nerves (which completely bailed on me) and my horrible notes (I forgot the cleaned up version and kinda had to wing it) and discussing fears, inspirations, passion projects, and breaking into the business with me. It was definitely an hour of my life that I will never forget. So please, read on and find out why I have a complete crush on Dana Vespoli’s mind.

And, to Ms.Vespoli; if you are reading this, I apologize for having to cut our conversation short (I was at work and on my lunch break). If you ever want to finish our conversation (I promise to have my notes with me), please contact me on Twitter or email me. I will call in sick to work or have a “family emergency” to make sure time is not an issue if I have to.

The Bob: I guess I’ll start by gushing a little bit. I’m new to your movies. I’ve only been working for Inked Angels for about two months now and I’ve reviewed four of your movies…and I fell in love from the first one. The first one I did was Strap On Specialist 6. I love the stories, the fact that you put a plot to them. I don’t know, it seems weird maybe? Most guys…

Dana Vespoli: Well I understand, cause I like context, you know. The only time I don’t need the context is if I’m just a huge fan of the specific talent that’s in the scene. You know, cause I’ve seen them enough, then it’s okay and I can see just the wall to wall sex or whatever, but I personally enjoy context to situations, so I’m a fan, too, of that.

Bob: That’s cool. Well, I just spent the last week devouring any information I could about you and I just listened to the Just Guy Talk from two weeks ago. You were discussing, of course, one of the generic questions I’m sure you get all the time, how you got into the business. Which I was really trying to avoid, the same questions over and over. One of the things you mentioned, which really actually connected with me, was you got into the visual at a very young age. With an uncle who didn’t hide his stuff very well. That was actually the same way I discovered it. I had an uncle who didn’t hide anything. I was four years old thumbing through Playboys and Penthouse, you know.

Dana: Right.

Bob: Do you think that was an inspiration which led up to how you decided to go into the adult industry?

Dana: You know, it’s one of those things where I think some children are. People are quick to make the assumption about children as being, you know, that their hyper sexuality is abnormal. I think some kids are born with these feeling that sort of emerge sooner than other children, you know. I had friends who had really no interest at all and no curiosity until much later. At an age that I think most people deem as appropriate. An appropriate age to be curious. But I had these feelings from a very early age and what my uncle’s pornographic material provided me with was a kind of context for the feelings that I had that I didn’t understand. So it’s one of those things where I would say that the work that kind of made me interested in becoming a pornographer, I would say that was more when I got a little older so, you know, stuff like Russ Meyer and Radley Metzger. When I was college age, like, Catherine Breillat when it also took on a political, you know, my politics also kind of influenced the way that it shaped, the way I went. But I was a performance artist for a long time so the adult stuff with Mitchell Brothers and music and all that kind of stuff, it all kinda led to I guess me being here now. But the magazines, it certainly, it was kinda the “ah ha” moment for me as far as just how I felt about sex. But I think the work of these film makers, that’s when I sort of recognized it as artistic. When I saw things like John Leslie’s work, Radley Metzger and even Russ Meyer. Russ’ stuff is so funny, you know, he had such a sense of humor to the stuff that he did. Stagliano, and all that stuff kind of gave me the idea that this is something I could do. When I started to have ideas and things once I started performing.

Bob: Okay. Another thing I wanted to ask about was your movie that just came out, Fluid 2. I am very excited to see it. I have not gotten it yet. I saw the trailer, I saw the mermaid, I was hooked. I have an overwhelming fear of water. I don’t go in the pool, I don’t go in the ocean. So underwater creatures, so to speak, appeal to me because I will never see them. And then I saw the mermaid and I was like, okay this is one I have to have, you know. And with reading that you got interested with the water bondage, where that was a fear as well, for you. Did that have a lot to do with the Fluid series?

Dana: It did. You know, I have a really funny relationship with water. An interesting relationship with water, because I grew up and I was a lifeguard all through college and I rode crew so I spent a lot of time in water, but I’m also extremely claustrophobic. And my claustrophobia really presented itself later in life. I wasn’t really claustrophobic until my late thirties, I think. It was after I had my twins, I started to get really weird in elevators and enclosed spaces. So the fascinating thing to me with the Kink site, the water bondage site, is this idea that, the specifics of it really freak me out. I think it was Bobbi Starr who was put into a cage and then put into this weird, narrow glass enclosed like, she’s put into water in this cage and she can’t get out and then they pull her back out again, that’s insane to me. I have a really hard time with bondage, I didn’t used to. And then I had done sex and submission at Kink and some of the other things. I didn’t really have a problem being tied up. And even when I was a lifeguard, one of the things they do when you do the lifeguard training course is if there is a spinal injury, if someone has a spinal injury you have to get them into a spinal board in the water. Sometimes I was the person they would strap into the spinal board and I’m in water. And I just remember being in college, you know, that’s when I was doing it and you would have to take these refresher courses and I would always volunteer to be the person that was put on the board because it was relaxing to me to just be still and be handled. I could never do that now. Cause if they let go, you’re stuck and you sink to the bottom, you know, but I had the other people in the class holding on to me and the instructor was explaining how to stabilize the neck and head and all these kind of things and I could never do that now. There’s this weird catharsisim going to the Kink site and looking at these water bondage things, which, you know is terrifying to me, but at the same time, because I do so much sub work, you know, and I was such a sub for so long at Kink and just in general in scenes when I came into the industry, it’s a nice place to be. I have a harder time with it now than a few years ago. I don’t know why. We just change as we get older I think. It’s that thing, a lot of subs told me, then they graduate to being doms, and it’s kind of like you pay your dues and you move into this other role. But watching the water bondage stuff, went from being something that was frightening and I would look at it like a horror movie to something that I found arousing, and I think it was watching, yes, it’s Lorelei Lee and Steven St.Croix, that scene that really turned me on, because there’s that relationship between fear and arousal, I wanted to explore that a lot. And that’s how Fluid came about, it was part of that and then part of the other things that I was seeing a lot of. I do a lot of fluid exchange just in scenes with people and I like to see it. Like when I’m shooting and it’s back lit and you see stringers and I think that’s really sexy. So it’s kind of incorporating a lot of that and then of course Casey’s whole back, I didn’t know I could afford to do another Fluid or I could come up with any new material for another one because it’s quite a bit of work. But after working with Casey on, it was actually on a Sweetheart movie, and she and I were talking her background, I was like, I have to do this, this is amazing. With her breath play and she’s just such a consummate professional, and knowledgeable and intelligent, and you know, it was her world and that’s what brought her into adult. So, I just love people too, and some of these performers, I just find them so fascinating in their process, I like to watch them work, you know, and document it and capture it and she’s just somebody that I really have a lot of respect for. And also Aiden Starr who was in the first one, who, I’ve said this before, if I had to go do water bondage, I would want her to be my dom, cause I just trust her completely. She’s so caring and smart and such a good dominatrix. So yeah, that’s kinda how it came about.

Bob: Okay. Something that was touched on, I want to say it was on the Porn Director Podcast was the difference between male and female directors. Which basically until I discovered your stuff a couple months ago, I never gave the director much thought. So now when I watch something, I pay attention to who’s directing. And it seems that, in my eyes anyway, and I could be completely wrong, but a lot of the more extreme stuff, you know, your triple penetrations and whatnot are usually from a guy director. Which kinda is weird to me. Because you’re a guy, why you wanna see that many dicks? Whereas, and I don’t know if it’s because it’s the Sweetheart stuff, but with like your stuff, the shots…instead of being as much raunch as you can get, there’s more lingering body shots, there’s more of an appreciation of the female form, than how many holes can I stuff and what can I get in it. Would you say that’s a fair assumption?

Dana: Yeah. With the stuff I do, to be fair, when I direct Sweetheart, I write the scripts, I organize the shot list and I’ll make certain decisions about, you know, tracking a shot down a hall, or if it’s a montage sequence, but overall when it comes to the actual sex, James Avalon and Matt, my two camera guys, I let them make decisions and it’s also based on what Mile High wants. A lot of what had worked so well for them is held over from when Nica Noelle was directing. as far as how they want to depict the sex. The stuff I do for Evil I shoot myself. Unless I’m in the scene. If I’m in the scene, then I have certain camera people who understand the way that I like things shot. I’m less..you know there’s some things also I can’t shoot for Sweetheart. And that’s fine because I feel, what I love about working for Sweetheart is it’s almost like, I’m trying to think of a way to put it. If Evil Angel is the sprint season, you know, when you go balls out and you just try to see who gets to the finish line first. It’s very aggressive. Then Sweetheart for me is the long race. The endurance race season. So it’s like head races where you do like six miles and it’s based on time, you’re not actually nose to nose with anybody. It’s relaxing and I feel like I get back to intimacy and it’s really formed a lot of the way I shoot my Evil Angel now. Long ago when I came back to shooting after I had been gone for a bit, I realized I sorta got to know what my tastes were cause I watched a lot of movies in my time away. I was following certain careers. And I just also think it’s as I’ve gotten older and sorta become more cognizant of what moves me as a human being versus what I thought was expected of me as a porn star. You know, I like raunch just as much as the next person, but for me it has to make sense. And very much of what I see now it doesn’t make any sense. A good example is I worked for Rocco Sifredi when he was in town and I was doing a DP with two guys, and I know Rocco likes the rough stuff, and I like it too, but again, it has to make sense. And one of the guys would sort of just out of nowhere start smacking me, or I’m about to have an orgasm and he would during that moment just start smacking me repeatedly and I, you know, when we stopped, I just said listen, when I’m having an orgasm why would you interrupt it? Why would you take that away from me? What’s the goal? What’s the goal for you? I like to be slapped sometimes and surprised, but when you’re just mercilessly bruising my face and pulling out chunks of my hair, I don’t know what you’re doing. And I was like, I wasn’t screaming, I was just like, it has to make sense, and that doesn’t make any sense to me. What you’re doing is sending me home with a bruised face which makes no sense. I mean you gotta know how to slap properly. So things have to make sense, so for me, my rule of thumb usually is, once we’ve established what’s happening, once we see that there is double penetration, we don’t need to stay on it. We don’t need to stay on it and just look at these things going on, the important thing is to establish the fact that it’s there and then we look to see how those people are reacting to what is happening. It’s also important to me to see how the other person’s face is. If it’s a boy/girl scene, I wanna see his reaction. And I wanna see how he’s affected also, and I wanna see them together, because sex is a two way street, it’s not something that’s being done to a female, it’s something that two people are enjoying and I, for me, that has always been what watching sex is about. Yeah, so I agree. When it becomes, what I call, the circus act of ‘let’s see how many dicks we can get into this girl’s asshole’, I guess I don’t understand what we’re doing. You know, it’s at that point, if somebody asked me ‘would you ever do triple penetration’, I was like, I guess I don’t understand what the point is. You know, if it’s to see how many things we can get inside of me, I guess I don’t see what’s sexy about that. So yeah, I feel like in general, the movement has been away from that, I guess that’s not totally true, I mean you look at Mike Adriano stuff and J.Sinn stuff and there’s still this fascination with putting things in holes, but by and large, and then I could be wrong too, thinking inside of my little box, but I just see the success of the romance companies, and more than interest in scenes of context and pleasure and all that kind of stuff. The taboo stuff does so well, but for me, I like the marriage of both, you know, the seduction and I like it when things are dirty, but it has to make sense. It just has to make sense, for me anyway.

Bob: Right. That makes sense. One more thing, I believe it was from the Just Guy Talk podcast, when they asked you about, I’m gonna call it the “fantasy scene” that you want to do, but you’re not sure how to do, where everything tied together, and you made the comment about not being sure if it was prevalent. I think that’s an amazing idea, where almost moving it from one film to almost a series. Where all the characters and all the players would intertwine, and you would get how each person affects the other person.

Dana: Yeah, it was one that, I mean when you tie everyone together it does become a very expensive venture. It’s also what I’ve struggled with a lot in this industry, and very recently, is finding the marriage between art and commerce for myself because so much of what drives me and interests me is, I guess, the politics of sex and also because, you know, I kinda see myself as a storyteller. And so much of the stories that have always interested me are related to human sexuality. It seems it’s hard for people to reconcile within themself, and I had this conversation with Nica Noelle, who is just really, she’s been a real mentor to me. I think she’s just a really smart and wise person, and I’ll go to her sometimes, cause she always said to me, she’s like, you have to remember you know these people, where your money is, is the people that want to jack off. They need to jerk off, and they don’t want to cry and they don’t want to think all the time. There are those people who do but the far greater numbers are the people that go to the VOD sites and they have twenty minutes or they wanna do something and they wanna feel good. It has to be easy for them. And when they see something that’s disturbing to them or upsetting or requires them to think too much, they’re going to steer away from that and go look up something from Jules Jordan or, you know, someone like that. And it affects my sales, I get good reviews and the critics like it and the porn scholars appreciate what’s happening and they understand things , and so Nica said, you’re subversive, like you shouldn’t change. If you do you have to be mindful of the audience and so this fantasy project for me might actually have to be one that is done with actors and it’s submitted to film festivals versus being distributed through Evil Angel. I don’t know that a standard porn demographic will necessarily appreciate something that explores identity and how we see ourselves and how we see each other. You know what I mean, and the politics of race and gender and all these things maybe is not the kind of fare that people wanna jack off to when they have twenty minutes for lunch, you know what I mean. I’m really wondering what to do, I mean my sales are affected when I do something that’s upsetting. Good reviews don’t always translate into sales and as somebody who makes a living at porn, I have to be mindful that the stuff that people like to see from me and will pay for is stuff like Fluid and the TS stuff that I do, and the stuff that I enjoy. But I have to be mindful that when I have this urge to have somebody kill somebody else in a scene, because it just makes sense to me, it doesn’t makes sense to the guy that just wants to jerk off and then go about his day. So it’s a tough thing. Nica had said go make movies, you know, go try your hand at making movies and telling stories and they can be X rated but when it comes to the stuff that you distribute through Evil Angel, you have to think about the people that subscribe to the site and watch the stuff. So yeah, I have these ideas that I think I’ll have to fruition. And that was another reason why that one was on standby. I was really starting to wonder who’s gonna watch this. I don’t know that it’s gonna be, you know, Bob in Minnesota who has a thing for girls with big butts. You know what I mean, it’s a tough thing.

Bob: Well I did mention in a couple of my reviews of your stuff that in listening to the storyline, you know, the build up to a scene, especially the one with Pepper (Kester) and Veronica (Avluv) with the eating disorder, that that story was almost too good for porn. Like that could have totally been, you could have made a whole movie out of that. And I’m thankful that you do what you do, but I honestly believe you could make it mainstream. You know, just a little more gushing there I guess.

Dana: Oh, no, thank you. You know, it’s nice to hear, cause when I write these things, the funny thing is, one of my favorite series to write for Sweetheart is the Lesbian Babysitter series. I don’t know why, I think it’s because of my age, and because I’m a mother and because I have friends and I see, it’s, everything I do has a basis in reality. Whether it was an experience I had or my friends growing up or acquaintances. And I get attached to the characters, especially when I do the feature ones. Cause you grow to love them and care about them. You know what I mean, you get attached to these people, that you bring them to life and then you say goodbye to them. And you watch them come to life in the stories. That is that thing I forget sometimes. The great thing about the Mile High stuff, the Sweetheart stuff is, the romance fans have a lot more patience, and I think, interest in seeing things that they identify with. There’s tenderness, they want to see tender lovemaking. They wanna see Veronica and Pepper, you know, that their sex comes out of the compassion that Veronica has and this connection that they have. So that’s another nice thing that I really like about writing for Sweetheart. It might not always translate well to Evil Angel. I don’t know if you’ve seen She’s Come Undone, it was a lesbian feature that I did for Evil Angel with Sovereign Syre. I realize now looking back, it kinda just fell under the radar. A few of the lesbian genre fans, that are fans of Sweetheart, they came upon it, and said positive things about it, I think in the forums, but I think overall, I think it was really not meant for the Evil Angel audience. That’s one that had a lot of, sort of, emotional layers to it, and I think it kinda fell flat. I look back on it and think that should have been distributed through Sweetheart or even through Girlfriends films. But the nice thing with the Lesbian Babysitters stories and things like that when I do them, it functions well for that audience. So yeah, some of those darker ones, I kinda have to remind myself, put it in a little file folder and get some money together, and it’s one of those things, shop it around, just let it find an audience out there. It’s probably not gonna be a porn audience, you know. I think that’s what it is, I wanna make movies, I wanna tell stories, and I love porn, but I also love these other things too. I’ll have to kinda pick through it and see what works for Evil Angel and even Mile High and see what would be more of like a passion project that I don’t have a lot of expectations for, except that I just like to put it out there and see if it clicks with anybody. So, yeah.

Bob: To kinda expand on that, how would you go about starting a project like that? I mean, to get the audience, to find out where your audience is, for a project like that?

Dana: Like a mainstreamish project? I’m very lucky and blessed to know a lot of, you know, when I came to LA, I came in, I was doing some commercial work. And was studying, doing scene study at the Beverly Hills Playhouse and going on auditions and all that kind of stuff, and when SAG went on strike and I ran out of money, I started doing production work on softcore movies, cause they’re always shooting. And they’re not SAG so I could get work doing that. But prior to that, I made some friends and I know a lot of actors, and I know a lot of actors who know other actors and their rates are a lot less expensive than, you know if you pay them scale, it still runs like hundreds of dollars cheaper than if I was to make this an adult movie. So you know, I think it’s really just writing a script and, I mean, I do a lot of my own camera work, but my significant other is a camera nerd. I’m sorta surrounded by a lot of people who work in the industry also. So it’s really just a matter of walking on faith and shooting it and getting a reasonable amount of money together, having it edited and then submitting to festivals. You know, I’d do this with absolutely zero expectations, more just the gratification of being able to do something and not have to worry about fitting sex in it somehow. Sex can happen and it can be as explicit or not explicit as calls for. But I think that’s really the way to do it. And sometimes you make a little bit of money, you know, and sometimes, somebody sees it and they like it and you end up getting a shot at making something else. Again, I would do it without any real expectations, I’m just horribly disappointed that these generally don’t do very well for porn audiences. It’s funny, it reminds me of, did you ever see the movie Hamlet 2? You know how he would just take his theater so seriously, and he’s arguing with the high school theater critic for the school newspaper about his choices. So sometimes it really has been trying to fit like a square peg into a hole type thing, which is what Nica has been lecturing me about for months now. You know, it would just be something to do and to have the experience. And it’s one of those things, too, that maybe it would suck. Maybe it would be, like this is terrible, I’m not gonna do this again, but I like the process. The process is just so fun. There’s writing, then you dread it, and then you re-write and you’re miserable and you never wanna see it again, then you find your actors and then you fall in love with it again. Sort of go through this process, and it’s gratifying just in itself. I think where you run into trouble is when you do these things with these huge expectations of like ‘this is it and then I’m going to be like Stephen Spielberg,’ you know. But even being able to put something out there and doing it as me. And working with people that have a huge love of the whole craft of acting. We have a lot of those in the industry I absolutely love like Danny Wylde was amazing. Tommy Pistol’s amazing. There’s just some of these, Sovereign Syre’s just a really, really, really good actress.

Bob: Yeah, I’ve only seen one scene of hers, and to be honest, the first thing I noticed was her eyes.

Dana: Oh, she’s got such great expressive eyes, yeah. Her Hollywood Babylon, that was one that, she’s just a really committed actress, and someone that I think should also explore some mainstream avenues also, cause she’s just quite skilled. But there’s quite a few performers that do have a natural, and it makes sense, you know, they perform, and people that are performers tend to, well the really good performers, tend to have a natural aptitude for channeling a lot of the emotion that’s required, you know, to give a nuanced performance, a lot of them just aren’t given the opportunity. Like Lily Cade’s a really good actress, there’s a few, Charlotte Stokely, there’s, I mean I could sit down and name twenty easily that have the chops to pull off stuff that’s more than the standard fare of pizza guy shows up or the bikini top falls down, you know.

Bob: In my research, you didn’t start…that’s a bad word…you didn’t pursue the actual directing or whatnot, writing, until you were in your thirties. Was that just a ‘I’ve got nothing to lose, do or die’…?

Dana: It’s a funny thing because, I really firmly believe that when you look back at the trajectory of your life, you know, you can kinda see how everything leads to where you are. It’s like my long time boyfriend in college, we met, we were eighteen/nineteen, he said, I’m going to get a degree in English, I’m going to go teach English for a year in Japan, I’m going to go to law school, and I’m going to become a lawyer. And that’s exactly what he did, everything was just mapped out. And for me, I knew that I wanted to write, but everybody wants to write, you know what I mean, it’s that thing where you get a degree in creative writing or English and everybody wants to write. My dream when I was a high school student was to become like another Twila Tharp, cause I was a dancer for years and danced professionally in high school. Originally when I’d gone to Mills, I was doing a double major in dance and comparative literature because I wanted to sort of like, you know, I’d read something like Lilian Hellman’s The Children’s Hour and stage it in my head and imagine movement to go along with illustrating what was happening. And I had done that in high school. My senior project was a scene that stood out in my head from Albert Camus’ L’etranger, where I actually set it to music. I guess it’s something I wanted to do, but at the same time there was that hesitation in me. And so my mom really wanted me to go to graduate school or law school, cause she was a professor. I was exhausted by the time I graduated. I had student loans and I worked so many jobs when I was in college, I just didn’t have the energy. The thought of applying to graduate school my senior year was insane. I was a nanny, I was a lifeguard, I was helping grade papers for a professor near my school, and trying to do my senior thesis. I was just was afraid of committing to more student loan debt for graduate school and having nothing to show for it. So I took a break and I ended up dancing at Mitchell Brothers and most of what I was doing was girl/girl sex shows. So it’s one of those things where, it’s a place where I felt free. I felt happy. I would do these elaborate sets with music and outfits and I’d plan these things out. And the other girls at the club, I have to give it up for a lot of these San Francisco dancers. You got these generic blondes who are dancing to Warrant, and you have like crazy sex to Phantom Of The Opera, I mean, it’s insane, with just this real mix of diverse people, and so I felt really at home. Being creative and making quite a bit of money, I kept going back to the idea of graduate school. I don’t wanna do comparative literature, maybe I’ll do American studies, or maybe I’ll do communications, maybe I’ll do art history. It would just change every few months until I realized I was not actually going to apply to graduate school. I was making quite a bit of money, but still trying to figure out what I wanted out of life. So when I moved to LA, I was dancing at Mitchell Brothers and I would go on auditions. I started to write these scripts, just for myself, these short scripts and then wondered how I could ever shoot any of it. And then I was watching a lot of Stagliano stuff, and then was this huge porn fan. And then it occurred to me, I really loved what Catherine Breillat was doing and also Nicole Holofcener and a lot of these female directors and a lot of the stuff they were exploring that was just really challenging and beautiful. I was also a big Mary Gait’skill fan, of her writing. In fact, I’ve gone back and reread some of her short stories. It’s amazing how as you get older and you revisit some of the stuff, how it affects you differently, you know, as you’re going through your life. So when I started performing, I did it with the intention of eventually being able to make my own movie, cause one of the things I noticed with Stagliano was a performer and John Leslie was a performer, Joey Silvera was a performer. Most of the directors in the industry had a background in performing. There’s a mild nepotism in the industry, where if you’ve been a performer and you’ve worked enough of these companies, these company owners get to know you. And they get a sense of you, they’re more inclined to trust you with a budget. If you walk in off the street and say hey, I wanna make movies, they say, well what do you know about this stuff. And if you’ve been on set a million times, you have a sense of how things function. So I came into it with the plan of directing, and when I worked for John Leslie, you know, he was a mentor to me, and he was sorta counseling me on how to do it, ways to do things and all that kinda stuff and eventually it happened. I mean, within two years. I met Scott Taylor at New Sensations and when I found out he was looking for someone, I kinda raised my hand and said ‘hey, would you ever give me a shot? I bought a camera, I’ve been using it, I’ve been practicing for about six months now,’ and he said yeah, and so that’s essentially how it began. It took so long I think because, I was sorta living my life and doing okay, working at Mitchell Brothers and doing these other things. And everything kind of led to this place and I look back on it, it seems like a pretty clear path. I didn’t used to think it was. I used to think I was just a lost bohemian gypsy child and why couldn’t I be more like my ex-boyfriend who had it all figured out from the time he was in diapers, knew what he was gonna do. And I realize now that everything led here and it all makes sense and I don’t have any regrets. Which is another indication that I think the path was illuminated to this point here. I have a real love for this industry. I mean there’s some things I don’t like about it, like anything. But I have a real love and it’s always felt like home.

Bob: That makes a lot of sense. Would you recommend pursuing, if it’s been a dream ever since you can remember?

Dana: No. I guess I should clarify. The funny thing is, I don’t know that if porn in and of itself is a dream. I think the things that I do in the industry were a dream, but I think you can do those things in other mediums as well. You look at Jeff Koons, you know, who’s an artist. You look at Catherine Breillat, she’s made quite a few X rated films, but you wouldn’t call her a pornographer. There’s plenty of different mediums, from Bill T. Jones setting a dance piece where all of his dancers were naked, to Jeff Koons who’s like, a visual artist, to mainstream controversial film making and all that kind of stuff. I would say, just pursuing your dreams without fear of judgment from other people. And if that leads you to pornography, then of course, then welcome. You know, there’s quite a few people who’ve had great experiences. I just know a lot of people come into it wanting to be somebody, wanting to be Belladona. You know, I’ve heard girls say ‘I’m gonna be the next Belladona,’ ‘I wanna be the next Sasha Grey.’ Nobody says they wanna be the next Jenna Jamison anymore, but there was a time when they said that. The thing about Belladona is she didn’t come in wanting to be anything but who she is. And Sasha Grey, I’m not sure exactly what her goal was, but it worked for her, it was her time. And I think when you come into this industry wanting to be…someone. You have ideas and you need to express yourself in a manner to which pornography is the only thing that makes sense to you. I liken it to, would I recommend military service to people if I had a positive experience in the military. Not if your goal is to blow things up. Not if your goal is to seek vengeance. If you have this unquenchable pride in your country and the need to protect national security; then yes. Does that make sense, cause porn is a dangerous fucking place. It is a brutal, dangerous, bloodsucking place for people who do not have their wits about them. And I’ve seen horrible things happen to girls in this industry. And to guys, too. I would say proceed with caution.

Bob: Okay. Well unfortunately, I’m on my lunch break and my hour is up. So, I guess I’m gonna have to wrap this up. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me.

Dana: Cool. Well, thank you so much. This was really fun. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

Bob: I really appreciate it.

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